yurodivuie ([info]yurodivuie) wrote,
@ 2008-05-04 13:16:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Entry tags:i

traps + moment of truth
Played a little more Yeld last night; this time with many traps.  We found out (1) some of the rules for traps didn't make sense if applied literally, like the idea that every character needed to roll against the trap, particularly when a solution was found by thinking up a way around the trap, and (2) traps are hard to work with and still keep the game moving.  Really, a trap should never actually stop the party for good, because that's just not that fun.  It should hurt them, sure, but even that has to be balanced against the fact that it's really easy to one-shot characters.  We also couldn't figure out if we could help each other over a trap, or start a chain against a trap.  After all, if you have strength of 1, any reasonable trap requiring strength to pass is going to be almost impossible to cross for you.  How does that work out?  This was particularly relevant to my poor blackmage, with strength of 1 and tough of 1; I can't jump/dodge/roll, and if I fail, that means I'm dead or left behind.  So!  Overall a fun session, but very different from our first; in the first game we were running using the usual gaming stereotypes, which to me is a lot of fun, but this time we were trying to be more subtle and literary about it, which is a bit harder.  Anyway.
Changing subjects: I've been working in my off time on abdiel (test automation center) for about six months... I'm presenting it to my group tomorrow.  It's been a lot of work, but I've been eating it for so long I think it should pay off (ie, it's not utter garbage).  Even so, when you develop something that only you use for a long time, you sort of learn to work around the known bugs without ever thinking about it.  It's about 4300 lines now, spread out in a handful of modules, none longer than a thousand lines.  What's odd is thinking about how programming applies to creative writing.  But anyway.


(Post a new comment)


[info]jake_richmond
2008-05-04 11:30 pm UTC (link)
Traps... My idea here is that Traps represent a general challenge. A wall that needs to be climbed. A cell that must be escaped from. characters don't have to approach the trap the same way. The Witch Hunter might try to climb the wall, the Oath Breaker might try to smash it down using Break dice and the White Mage might search for a hidden passage through to the other side. Each character rolls against the same challenge dice, but their actions can be very different.

The idea with Traps is that they are roadblocks. The party needs to overcome them, or find a different way to proceed. They never stop the adventure, just push it in a different direction. think about the scene in The Two Towers where Sam and Frodo first see that gates of Mordor. It's just too big and too though to sneak through. they know they can't do it. They need to find a different way.

So you get as situation where the Soul thief and the Shepherd can climb the wall and totally get to the other side, and the Black Mage and Oath breaker can't, no matter how many times they try. Do you split the group? Do the characters that made it to the other side help the characters that didn't? How does that work? or do you decide that since you can't all make it, you have to choose another way? That's currently the answer, but I know that isn't very satisfying. I'm working on it. I want Traps to be something that the characters need to work togetehr to overcome. Once the trap is defeated, all the characters can pass.

Traps don't have to always cause damage, and as I said before, Traps shouldn't be used in a "you must get past this or the adventure is over" sense. Rather a good Trap would describe two paths, one that leads directly to the characters goal but is guarded by spikes and pits, and a longer path that leads away from the goal, but looks like it might curve back around.

So, I'm working on traps, trying to define how they should be used, and how players can overcome them.

FYI, Black Mages can destroy Traps with the Explode spell. If you can cast it. You may be too young for that.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]graypawn
2008-05-05 07:21 am UTC (link)
I gotta admit: It was mostly my fault.
So...
to defend my failure, i will point out two things...
1 - I B.S'd all the traps. Pulled them outta nowhere (which lead to some good questions i'll ask next...)
2 - I rushed them into a big under-ground temple-thing, carved outta some giant magic tree. Why? because the players were getting bored with my foofy, dialogue heavy 'Welcome to Yeld! Here's my View of it! Huzzah!" So i pitched 'em in a Spooky Old Tree. "No more talking? Great...uh...Traps! Huzzah, again!"

Q: Are we supposed to come up with the Traps beforehand? And if so, are we supposed to have a specific solution in mind? I can see pros and cons to both. In fact, i like both options. The BS'd traps i made up were real fun (the concept of Traps fit the game and style PERFECTLY). But i ended up pulling my punches...two details on that real quick:
1 - I bought all Non-DMG Traps, but the Text said loosing to a Trap typically means they can't get around that Trap. Which was bad for this specific situation because...
2 - I didn't think about that at all...and i made a series of 8 traps...to get to the "Relic Room" that would give them their Costumes and alow them to have Heroic Jobs. So...uh...if they were already Heroes, and they were just ridding the Tree of some evil spirits or something, Great! Trap away! Instead i sent them in with about 3 dice to use, asking them to get to the most interesting part of an Intro to Yeld, with the unintentional intention of stopping them about 8 times. My fault. If i'd thought about it they should have faced EASY traps or something. I mean, who wants to die repeatedly TRYING go get your cool stuff? It would be like me picking on them when they're weak.

I guess my big question is this: Are you trying to pull more from old NES RPGS for this? Or from Child-adventure fiction? As a Game game i'd say Traps should do what they do: Thwart the onward progress/ Force a new Path/ Induce FAILURE. But if they're supposed to be just flavor to the story, then why not some sort of Mini-reward/punishment system? You fail to make it past a Trap, the Trap has a consequence: you loose some coins (maybe thats more Vidoegame?)/ you get poisoned and loose one Smart dice/ you get cursed until you leave where the trap is, unable to draw any swords or daggers until you do. You know, old D&D stuff.

Yeld is a wonderful blend of both videogame and storytelling. I love it. So i would be welcome to try both, and report back to HQ if you want! (Next up is yurodivuie to run our game's chapter 2, titled "Words and Legends")

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]jake_richmond
2008-05-05 10:17 am UTC (link)
I've been thinking about Traps and their roll in the game all week. I don't want to go into it to much here 9beyond trying to address what you're saying, but Nick and I are really changing what Traps mean and how they work in the game.

I think a big problem here is that the text doesn't talk about how to use Traps and what they are actually for. As I said before, I think Traps should exsist not so much to stop the characters progress as to force them to look for (or at least consider)other solutions.

I think Traps can be both planned and improvised.When you buy a Trap, what you are doing is buying a set of dice to use against your players.Sometimes you'll know exactly what you want them for, and you'll have it planned out. Sometimes you'll just know that you may want a 4 dice Trap at some point, but you're not sure what it will be. Either way is fine.

The problem you're describing is something that I think is less an issue with the Traps and more an issue with the game in general and how it is presented. there are no real guidelines yet for the characters early, non-heroic adventures in Yeld. The intention is that these early adventures should be simple missions with only a few challenges, but there are no guidelines at all. So it's easy to do what you did, and throw a bunch of Traps at the group, and then realize you've presented them with a difficult and not very fun situation. So I'm totally working on that. And Traps as well.

Traps come from a lot of different places for me. Certainly the SNES games, like Link to the Past, were a huge inspiration for Traps. Actually, I think part of the problem is that when I say "Traps", what I really mean is "any non-monster challenge that the players must face". I know that's really broad,and I know that the game text doesn't really say that at all. Let me give you some examples of how I would and have used Traps:

A locked Treasure Chest. there's something inside, but the friends have to figure out how to open the chest to discover it. The Trap dice cover every challenge that the Chest represents, from Trying to force it open using Strong dice, to trying to pick the lock using Smart dice. If the chest is rigged to explode or is full of gas, the Trap dice cover that as well.

A town. The Trap dice cover every challenge the Friends can face in this town, from arguing with he mayor to stealing horses. If the Friends want to discover which of the towns houses is haunted, they'll roll against the Trap dice. If they want to barter with a shop keeper, they'll roll against the Trap dice.

A Sunken Temple. The Trap dice cover every spiked pit, sliding wall, hidden chamber and complex puzzle the Friends will face in this temple. Actually, throwing all this togetehr as a single Trap may be a bit much, but you could do different levels of the Temple as the same Trap.

This is how I've been kind of using Traps. As you can see, this differers from the game text and presents other problems. As I said before, Nicka nd I are revising how this all works anyway. My hope is that we'll have an update in the next week or two.

Jake

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]yurodivuie
2008-05-05 09:34 pm UTC (link)
Wow, thanks for the information on how the traps function. It still brings up more questions (how many traps per trap, as you mention in your sunken temple example), but I think I have a clearer view of how you're using them. Which is good, because I'm next up to run....

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]graypawn
2008-05-06 07:21 am UTC (link)
Yeah, thanks, that was awesome. So, am i right in saying it's more like 'Giving Stats to a Thing' than just 'traps?' If so, then does that mean 'once the trap is beaten, then you don't have to roll against it' still holds up?

I can see pretty clearly how the locked chest works as either improv or specific effects...but i'm totally intrigued (like Dave) to hear more about the Trap Dice for Underwater Temple concept. Does that mean they just roll against the Temple dice until they get what it is you're setting them up to get? That...works really well...in theory. Plus, it's like, super, uber simple!

Awesome.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]graypawn
2008-05-06 07:23 am UTC (link)
Re-reading what i wrote: Editorial notes follow...

"f so, then does that mean 'once the trap is beaten, then you don't have to roll against it' still holds up?"
What i mean is, do we define what "Beating the Temple" is? Or do we improv that?

Open to any explanations.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]jake_richmond
2008-05-06 09:09 am UTC (link)
yeah, the word "Trap" is... it's the wrong word. Nick and I were arguing about it today.There are three types of conflicts in the game. the first is extended conflicts with other characters. These are Fights, and this can include stuff like arguments and other non-violent disagreements (more on that coming soon). The second is extended conflicts with non-characters. These are what Traps are supposed to cover, stuff like actual traps, crumbling mountain passes, haunted houses or sunken ships. Things that will offer a continuous challenge until they are finally overcome. The third category is one off conflicts using Adventure dice (or Challenge dice or whatever we called them in the text). this is meant for unplanned or short conflicts. A guard that turns the friends away from the town. A tree that needs to be climbed. Stuff like that.

Getting to your question, I think it does mean that once a Trap has been beaten you don't have to challenge it again. Except that's kind of weird if your trap is something big like a town or a temple or whatever. It seems weird to say that since you got past the spike trap in the first room of the temple, everything will be smooth sailing from there. So maybe a trap can challenge you in multiple ways? Or maybe a big Trap like a Temple is really a bunch of little Traps strung together? Or does the trap need to be beaten multiple times? I don't know. We're totally working on it.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]graypawn
2008-05-07 08:51 am UTC (link)
This...is awesome. I just want to say Well Done to the 'buy your Challenges to weigh your story's difficulty." That's cool. I've liked that since i first encountered it in a similar fashion with Beast Hunters.

But first of all, the radical reference to oldskool gaming with the 'Easy, Medium, Hard' adventure setting is perfect. Add to that the system for spending a little on badguys, spending a little on challenges you're going to set up, and then saving a little for improv problems? that's gold.

Suggestions: Aside from beating a Trap/Challenge with something that ends it (like Break! or something) maybe you could just throw in a simple limiter mechanic? Like, once you beat it you can declare that you're going to do whatever you did to get around it over and over, unless the storyguide says "Oh, yeah? Well on the way back something tricky happens!" and he spends on of his leftover Challenge Dice to roll the Trap again.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]jake_richmond
2008-05-07 09:04 am UTC (link)
Well, I think once you don't have to roll against the Trap, it's effectively beaten. So once you beat it by finding a way around, jumping over it, out smarting it or breaking it, then it shouldn't pose a problem after that. So yeah, you can totally say "I figured out the puzzle once, so I'll just gop through that process again on my way out". that works.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Create an Account
Forgot your login?
Login w/ OpenID
English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…